The Gaming Den

Ok, much better. Now we're getting somewhere.

MGuy wrote:

Eberron doesn't change anything major about the rules. It adds a new class, a new race or two, and some spike defenses in the form of action points.

Pathfinder however downgrades the rules hard. Relevant to you, beatsticks become weaker and casters become stronger. So that means your Samurai and your so called caster killer are objectively worse than I am saying they are if you're right. So that doesn't help you one iota. If you're right, the problem is WORSE. Which is one more reason why you should burn your PF books. Or at least not use them.

I don't have any PF books (the core book doesn't come out until Aug 13th). I only have the free beta which I stopped looking at after I had heard there were going to major changes from the content in it. I had heard through their boards that casters were nerfed (death spells reduced in effectiveness, More saves allowed on spells that fuck you up hard) and that all other classes got an upgrade (more abilities/class options). As I said before I did look around this board before, and the few times I did searches on pathfinder stuff your name has come up. So I've seen some of the stuff you have said, and to be honest it does make me think (I think the last one I went through had something to do with the traps). However,there doesn't seem to be any major deal breakers within it that weren't already in 3.5. To settle my curiosity and to see all of your points on the subject matter I'll start a thread that asks about the major flaws with Pathfinder. Relative to the martial classes in 3.5 the upgrades do seem better. Might it be good to mix and match then? let the casters stay the same and bring in the other classes from PF?

No, you heard wrong. There are very few people on the Paizo forums that know what they are talking about in even the most basic ways. That extends even to the highest tiers, such as the developers. It is full of people that think healing for 1d6 per 2 levels is not only a great use of your entire turn, but that that will actually keep you alive for eternities* in D&D combat.

Granted, most of the examples are a little less extreme, like characters only doing 20 damage a round or a hit at level 15 and characters lacking cloaks of resistance (and somehow expecting to not get annihilated by any random save based effect).

It's not just their character design, it's the tools you design characters with.

They especially love them some stealth nerfs. Take for example their Fighter. Now to someone that didn't know any better, they'd call the Fighter better because they get some minor trivial features that basically amount to change for the sake of change. They'd also likely vastly overestimate the value of such, particularly in regards to AC.

Trouble is Fighters have and still are centered around feats. What do they have again? Oh right, nerfed Power Attack, and nerfed Improved Trip. And that was the only things they ever did, so two tricks minus two tricks amounts to zero tricks.

'Oh, but there's new feats!' you might be saying. Too bad they are all critical focused. There is a long list of problems with this, so I'll stick to the main ones.

1: Criticals = precision damage. You know, same as a Rogue. Except Rogues do it better because they get more of it, and get more other stuff. So doing that just makes you a gimp Rogue. At which point you should play a damn Rogue.

2: Criticals = random. Trouble is, you're a PC. And that means you're on the wrong side of Iterative Probability. There are many fights. You would need to get lucky in all of them for a luck based strategy to work. Because if you could do it without that, then it's a waste of resources to get the critical stuff. Since that isn't going to happen, all you're going to do is trick yourself into thinking you are better than you are. And you might even get away with it... for exactly one battle. Too bad there's 252 more eh?

And that's not hyperbole. 13.33 encounters per level, 19 level ups between 1 and 20.

Suffice it to say, you need consistent, reliable results. And that means not bothering with criticals.

3: Criticals = easily blocked. *insert long list of stuff immune to them, starting with everything at high levels* Now, you're getting most of these at mid and high level. You do the math.

There's also other stuff like the anti synergestic factor, but suffice it to say they aren't doing anything except tricking the gullible. New feats = not worth a damn.

The best thing to do with PF is discard it. They do have a very few instances of 'broken clock right twice a day' but you'd be better off stealing those ideas from the original source. For example, their skill rules are stolen from Saga. And naturally, they made it worse in the process, but the concept is there.

Oh yeah, and I keep comparing to Rogues but those got fucked over too. They again look better on the surface, but then you realize they can sneak attack under far fewer conditions, and SA damage was never very good in the first place (it was only relevant because you were eventually attacking 10 times a round with it as touch attacks).

You should read over my thread about 'Warning signs you have a bad DM'. Because them thinking people doing more damage than a Fireball was what was wrong with D&D all this time violates several tenets of basic competence.

As for my name there, they're still going on about me? Lol.

* - Typical D&D combat length is 3 rounds or less. The claims was that that pathetic use of actions made combat 50 rounds long, which is an eternity in D&D combat time. Not even 4th edition is that bad with the Padded Sumo. And if you don't know what that means... think of how long Padded Sumo (wrestlers) would take to kill each other.

Yeah, Pathfinder, where it doesn't actually make things worse, is just change for change's sake. Occasionally it takes a step down the right road, but even where it does it doesn't go far enough.

We also have no reluctance to rewrite parts of the rules that don't work on our own, so there's no reason to borrow something that could generously be called a half-fix if we're going to rewrite it anyway.

Damn and here I was thinking that the play tests (3 alphas and a beta) actually meant something. But (as I read a while ago on this board) apparently didn't do shit for it . Man now I'm depressed -.-

d12 Hit Die isn't that big of a deal.

It's merely "Almost always melee combatant" Hit Dice size. Fighters get d10 b/c they're expected to have ranged attacks as a back-up.

Barbarians are expected to be (closet) "trolls" (that can fly, past level 10) in terms of melee combat ability.

I'd reccomend making the different Samurai Clans to be one of two things: Prestige Classes; or Short.

The Power Level of the setting that you are discussing is actually really low. Most people in that setting don't kill Demon-Kings; they kill Demons, maybe a Demon Lord (level 10).

I'd suggest that you make each class 5 levels deep, and as Prestige Classes; and perhaps have a 5 level "samurai" class, that everyone takes. Mix and Match abilities from the various RoW classes. Barbarian, Fighter, Warrior, Knight and Samurai all have abilities of very different levels that you can safetly pillage without worrying about level appropriateness.

An other option is a 3 level base "Bushi" class; and then 3-5 level "Samurai" classes.

The Bushi class is pretty basic, and the Samurai classes represent different ethical standpoints; not different national factions. You want the party to be a mix of Samurai types; so there have to be in-world reasons why a Crab, Scorpion and Unicorn all work in a group.

MGuy wrote:Damn and here I was thinking that the play tests (3 alphas and a beta) actually meant something. But (as I read a while ago on this board) apparently didn't do shit for it . Man now I'm depressed -.-

The Paizo playtests. . . weren't.

Campaigns also make terrible tests for how the game actually works unless the DM knows how to run a playtest game. In most campaigns, the DM actively seeks to fix imbalances even if they don't notice they're doing it, through easter egg class features, treasure placement, monster selection, stretching abilities, and so on. While this is great in play, if you're trying to get accurate data it doesn't work. Balanced classes don't need easter egg class features to keep up with the monsters.

This also means that well-run playtest games are pretty much by definition not fun to play in until the product is finished. Paizo, on the other hand, were basically checking "was your campaign fun?" as their only criterion for playtesting, and banning people for complaining. That's marketing, not actually testing.

Hence why we use same game tests as our balance standard. They're faster to run than campaign or adventure playtests, don't take more than one person (two if you want to do a blind test, where the person doing the build doesn't know what the monsters are, and the person picking the monsters doesn't know what the build is), and by definition exclude the artifact sword that the DM gave the sword guy to keep up, unless it's explicitly part of the sword guy class.

Pathfinder does improve one type of balance - infra-class balance. Unfortunately, it does it at the expense of inter-class balance and actually being able to fight CR-appropriate challenges.

For instance, in PF, there's less difference between the throwing, wand-using Rogue, and the "try to sneak up on people" Rogue. And there's less difference between the area-control and charger Fighters and the Sword-n-Board Fighter. So if your "playtesting" just consists of comparing various different builds of each class, you might think that it was working. Too bad this means the PF non-casters have an even worse time being relevant than the 3.5 ones.

Ironically, if they'd just balanced things in the other direction (brought the "hide and sneak" Rogue up to the flask Rogue, brought the Sword-n-Board Fighter up to the Chain-Tripping Fighter), then they would have had, if not a fully balanced system, then at least an improvement on 3.5.

Has anyone looked at the spells in PF these days? I remember glitterdust being changed to having a save allowed each round to break it (like hold person does now), web being reduced to only one initial save for the entangle and if you break out (CMB or Escape Artist vs save DC w/standard action) the area is nothing more than difficult terrain with some concealment, death ward/mind blank/hero's feast no longer granting immunity but instead some large (~+6) bonus against the type, etc.

1) point taken d12s it is.

2) I don't use any particular campaign setting outside one of my own design. I merely take elements from other settings as I see fit. So consider it just like any other campaign that has the whole array of monsters/challenges from 1-20.

3)I am sure that that is not want to do. Short classes just don't appeal to me and the beginning and end of each style have considerably different fighting styles. They are varied enough to warrant me just splitting it up into different classes (as it was mentioned before I am probably going to make practically 6 different class). Truth be told I am really iffy about making prestige classes. I definitely know I want a 20 level progression for each base class I do (even if most people decide to drop out of it at level 7 in favor of another class).

If you write a long class, there has to be a reason for people to single-class it, otherwise you're wasting your time. Remember that you get better saves by multiclassing as much as possible, and warrior classes multiclass together well. So you need high-level abilities that attract people in and can't be made as combinations of other people's low-levels or through prestige classes.

1) ok well I'll just have to do that for each one. Do you have any suggestions for the Crab Style? I've seen you make less and less tweaks to it and the last asides you had (the full attack reaction ability/ki points) have been addressed or are being mulled over. Are there any other major dysfunctions that I'm missing?

Yoinkables from Spell Scourge:
Spell-Scourge: Whenever striking a creature that is either a magical creation, or able to create any effect like any spell; the Spell-Scourge gains bonus damage dice to their attacks. These bonus damage dice may only be applied to attacks derived from Base Attack Bonus, and not from special effects like Haste. This damage is [Energy] damage, and ignores Hardness and Damage Reduction.

Things that are included as viable targets are:
-Spell Casters
-Creatures with Spell Like Abilities
-Constructs
-Undead
-Creatures carrying magic items that create a magical effect (from a +1 Sword to a Staff of Shadows)
-Magical Traps
-A Liches Phylactery
-A Wizard's spellbook

If the Spell Scourge multi-classes, they lose this ability unless they had at least 5 levels in the Spell Scourge class.

Eldritch Hound: The Spell Scourge may cast any of the Detect spells at will. Additionally, a Spell Scourge is assumed to have Detect Magic always active, with no maximum range on this effect (assume that as far out as they can make Spot checks, or when blocked by actual walls, that they can see no farther). They also count as fully concentrating their Detect Magic ability at all times. In addition they gain the Track feat. Iaimeki's Track [Skill] feat ideally, the PHB feat if nothing else. Additionally, a Spell Scourge may use a Survival check instead of a Spellcraft check, at any point that they would want to make a Spellcraft check. Finally, you are able to track the trails that magic brought through an area, as if they were a normal set of tracks.

Acrobatics (Ex): Whenever attacked, or forced to make a reflex save; a Spell Scourge may make a Tumble check and use that as their AC or their Reflex Save

Interruption: Gained at 4th level. Any creature that uses any magic provokes an AoO from you. Even Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities that duplicate spells provoke AoOs from you; as well as using a magical item, even a continual-use item such as a magic sword or magic armour. If a creature is struck, one item that the target was using has it's magic suppressed for 1 round per two Class levels of the Spell Scourge.


Nowhere to Hide: Gained at 11th level. Gain True Seeing, at will.

Disruption Wave Gained at 12th Level. Able to use their Greater Dispell Magic in a 120' line, or 60' Cone. Each target is affected, but the Spell Scourge only makes a single roll for this effect.

Spell Rend: Any instantaneous or Permanent spell result may be Disintigrated by the Spell Scourge. Basically, they get Disintigrate at will; caster level is character level, no cap on caster level; and the DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod.

Scry and- Die!: If any creature uses a [Clairvoyant] ability on the Spell Scourge; the Spell Scourge may immediately, as a non-action, True Plane Shift or True Teleport to within 5' of the creature that tried to use a [Clairvoyant] effect on them. A Spell Scourge may intentionally lower their Non-detection ability in order for this scenario to occur.

Snake Mounatin Yoinkables:
Stable of Henchmen: A Master of Snake Mountain is a landlord and his dungeon fills up will all manner of ne'er-do-wells and hooligans. Practically this means that a Master of Snake Mountain can swap out his cohort for another cohort of an appropriate level at the beginning of each adventure. This doesn't mean that the Master of Snake Mountain can simply loot a cohort's worth of equipment every adventure, because while the different available cohorts are interchangeable, they actually don't go anywhere special when they are traded out. A cohort that is traded out is not dismissed, he simply doesn't accompany the Master of Snake Mountain on a particular adventure. Such a cohort continues to be available in later adventures if the Master of Snake Mountain decides to swap back. All available cohorts gain levels when the Master of Snake Mountain does, whether they were accompanying his adventures or not.

Enhance Minions (Su): At 4th level, the Master of Snake Mountain gains the ability to make grafts. He may supply grafts from any graft list, and may apply grafts from different lists to the same creature (though the maximum of 8 grafts still applies). The costs for applying these grafts are half normal, though he cannot implant grafts into himself.

Eyebeams (Su): A Master of Snake Mountain of 5th level has the ability to fire painful or deadly rays from his eyes. The Eyebeams are a ray effect with short range, and a creature struck with them (a ranged touch attack) is affected as per a symbol of pain. At his option, the Eyebeams may also inflict 4d6 of Force Damage. Once fired, the Eyebeams may not be used again for 1d4+1 rounds.

Wondrous Architect: At 5th level, a Master of Snake Mountain becomes a master of improving his own pad. He may make Wondrous Architecture in half the normal time at half the normal expense.

virgileso wrote:Has anyone looked at the spells in PF these days? I remember glitterdust being changed to having a save allowed each round to break it (like hold person does now), web being reduced to only one initial save for the entangle and if you break out (CMB or Escape Artist vs save DC w/standard action) the area is nothing more than difficult terrain with some concealment, death ward/mind blank/hero's feast no longer granting immunity but instead some large (~+6) bonus against the type, etc.

There are a wide variety of spell changes. Web directs you to the god damn fucking grapple rules so I can't tell how it's supposed to work. But they also introduce new spells like "Ghoulish Hunger" - it's a second level spell that forces the target to make a will save, and if they fail they have to spend every action for one round a level eating corpse parts (essentially prone and dazed). So since you essentially can't possibly survive that, the difference between that and old school hold person is sort of lost on me.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

virgileso wrote:Has anyone looked at the spells in PF these days? I remember glitterdust being changed to having a save allowed each round to break it (like hold person does now), web being reduced to only one initial save for the entangle and if you break out (CMB or Escape Artist vs save DC w/standard action) the area is nothing more than difficult terrain with some concealment, death ward/mind blank/hero's feast no longer granting immunity but instead some large (~+6) bonus against the type, etc.

There are a wide variety of spell changes. Web directs you to the god damn fucking grapple rules so I can't tell how it's supposed to work. But they also introduce new spells like "Ghoulish Hunger" - it's a second level spell that forces the target to make a will save, and if they fail they have to spend every action for one round a level eating corpse parts (essentially prone and dazed). So since you essentially can't possibly survive that, the difference between that and old school hold person is sort of lost on me.

-Username17

*shrugs* Multiple saves around instead of just one, then you're screwed? That was definitely a big point that was waved in my face on the boards. "Spells don't just screw you over for the rest of the encounter"

MGuy wrote:Crab: What does it do? Defence: High Defense, High HP, High Fort/Will, Constitution Based

Ok with a number of changes this is what I have so far. Testing wise its done pretty well.

1: You gain Heavy Armor Proficiency. Your normal speed and maximum speed are unaffected by armor. Your Max Dex in heavy armor is increased by one and the armor check penalties are reduced by one. This feat counts as Heavy Armor Proficiency for the purposes of meeting the perquisites for other feats. Additionally you may fore go one or both of your Ancestral Weapons to receive Ancestral Armor and/or an Ancestral Shield. If you do this your Ancestral Armor and/or Shield provides you with DR equal to your samurai level. If you have both you receive DR equal to 1 1/2 your level (rounded down).

What does Ancestral Weapon do? Is it the same as some previous samurai class?

2: Presence of the Mountain. You are not effected by encumbrance. Additionally you use your Constitution bonus to determine your carrying capacity. You and all allies within 30ft of you deal +1d6 damage/for every 10 hp below max they are.

You don't want to be doing bonus damage based on how much damage you have taken. I'd do something like "each ally within 30 ft. of you deals 1d6 extra damage on every attack and has save DCs increased by 1 for every 10 hit points they are below their maximum. You gain the bonus of the most damaged ally." This way, enemies are penalized for attacking your allies but not for attacking you.

3: Armor of the Rock Technique: You may spend a ki point to add your Constitution Bonus as a deflection bonus to AC.
4: Will of the Mountain: Use Con bonus on will saves, Uncanny Dodge, Soul of the Mountain: You gain a peranent +2/4 samurai levels to Constitution score
5: Crumbling Rock Technique: You may spend a ki point on any successful attack to sacrifice hp to deal more damage on any attack. You may deal an extra 1d6/2hp sacrificed. You may not sacrifice more hp then your Constitution Score

That's an interesting idea. It ties in pretty well with the whole defensive aspect.

6: Mettle, : Add Con as Natural bonus to AC
7: Avalanche Technique: A Crab Warrior who is fighting defensively may spend a ki point any time an ally is damaged to move adjacent to the source if it is in close range (25'+5'/2 levels) and may make a full attack against it. You always move adjacent to the real source of the damage not perceived sources.
8: Improved Uncanny Dodge,
9: Improved Avalanche: If you hit with the Avalanche technique you may immediately immobilize your target.

This should be at level one and get better from there.

10: Negate effects of 1 Spell/Day

What action type? what range? Are there any rolls involved?

11: The Mountain Does Not Move: You may, as an immediate or free action, spend a ki point to ignore the effects of dazed, disabled, dying, fatigued, nauseated, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, and unconscious. Dying characters do not lose hp from bleeding while using this ability. Characters who reach -10 hp die (or at whatever point equals death in your campaign). This feat does not end the status effect, it merely suppresses it.

Even if you drop Ki Points, keep this ability. An immediate action is enough of a cost if you make swift actions interesting enough

12: Negate 2 Spells/Day
13: Advanced Avalanche Technique: If you hit with the Avalanche technique you may opt to paralyze your opponent.
14: Repulsion, Negate 2 Spells/Day

Why Repulsion? It's not an effect that a Crab Samurai generally wants to be throwing down, since his whole deal is making the enemy attack him.

The rest of the class is fine, although I think Avalanche should be spread farther down.

MGuy wrote:I definitely know I want a 20 level progression for each base class I do (even if most people decide to drop out of it at level 7 in favor of another class).

One thing to keep in mind is that Hercules is a level 10 concept (the highest hydra CR is 13). Beyond that, you need to get in to some truly crazy shit. Your character goes from remarkable on a local scale to best in the real world in 6 levels. Past that, you are better at what you do than anyone on earth has ever been. At level 11, your wizard can slap around an Efreeti whenever he wants to get two wishes and another efreeti to smack. The druid is a velociraptor who has a velociraptor and summons other velociraptors while casting spells and the only real game breaking he's doing is finding the best animal to become; that's specifically what the druid was intended to be. The Cleric spends the day transformed into total ass-kicking form with all-day buffs until his numbers are better than a core fighter and he's still a full spellcaster. At level 15, the Wizard can wake up in the morning and decide he's going to make a deal with the devil today. Tomorrow he might lock somebody out of time forever, make somebody dance while a rogue or samurai or barbarian chops off their head, trap somebody's soul and turn himself into iron. If you don't plan to make a class that plays with those kinds of effects, stop kidding yourself and play E6 or Earthdawn.

MGuy wrote:*shrugs* Multiple saves around instead of just one, then you're screwed? That was definitely a big point that was waved in my face on the boards. "Spells don't just screw you over for the rest of the encounter"

No. If you spend one round crawling around a battlefield, you are going to get your head cut off. There's actual mechanics for it.

1) The Ancestral Weapon/Shield/Armor does anything you build it up to do. Its basically- Build your Magic Weapon/Shield/Armor of choice.

2) Sounds Reasonable. Consider it done.

3) Thank you

4) As it stands the class seems fine up to 5th level. I am really hesitant about adding anything else at earlier levels.

5) Its done in reaction to being cast upon (otherwise it would seem pretty useless). You can activate it After any saving rolls you may have made and even after you know the failed save's effect. It is personal range; If magic is about to hit you or the area you're in it is negated no roll needed.

6) Repulsion is for crowd control. Start of a fight: Enemies can't approach (not a big deal for targets that aren't bruisers) but its mostly for horde fighting management. Additionally, if this is a team thing, judicious use of positioning should place the Crab between his enemies and the party. The intention of Avalanche is to intervene as soon as the enemy has it in its head to attack somebody. Since a charge is an attack action he would move in front of his target before his movement even begins.

7) I agree.

8 ) oh... well I gave it my best guess ^.^

Major Update to Crusader
Added a few skills to class list
Changed HD
Arcane Curse and all abilities related to it now reworked.
Earthbolt turned into Cursed Bolt, Reworked it and all related abilities
Changed Acrobatics ability.
Added Dedicated (so its actually on the list)
Added Unstoppable
Added Eternal Hatred

MGuy wrote:Damn and here I was thinking that the play tests (3 alphas and a beta) actually meant something. But (as I read a while ago on this board) apparently didn't do shit for it . Man now I'm depressed -.-

Their playtest thread is basically them saying it's for testing out playing the game, and they don't care about math. Despite math being the whole fucking point of testing shit.

Now do you see why I have zero tolerance for people claiming PF actually does something productive?

Edit:

virgileso wrote:Has anyone looked at the spells in PF these days? I remember glitterdust being changed to having a save allowed each round to break it (like hold person does now), web being reduced to only one initial save for the entangle and if you break out (CMB or Escape Artist vs save DC w/standard action) the area is nothing more than difficult terrain with some concealment, death ward/mind blank/hero's feast no longer granting immunity but instead some large (~+6) bonus against the type, etc.

You still have win spells. And how does removing the forcefields against Rocket Tag make casters any worse? It just means people randomly die even more.

MGuy wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

virgileso wrote:Has anyone looked at the spells in PF these days? I remember glitterdust being changed to having a save allowed each round to break it (like hold person does now), web being reduced to only one initial save for the entangle and if you break out (CMB or Escape Artist vs save DC w/standard action) the area is nothing more than difficult terrain with some concealment, death ward/mind blank/hero's feast no longer granting immunity but instead some large (~+6) bonus against the type, etc.

There are a wide variety of spell changes. Web directs you to the god damn fucking grapple rules so I can't tell how it's supposed to work. But they also introduce new spells like "Ghoulish Hunger" - it's a second level spell that forces the target to make a will save, and if they fail they have to spend every action for one round a level eating corpse parts (essentially prone and dazed). So since you essentially can't possibly survive that, the difference between that and old school hold person is sort of lost on me.

-Username17

*shrugs* Multiple saves around instead of just one, then you're screwed? That was definitely a big point that was waved in my face on the boards. "Spells don't just screw you over for the rest of the encounter"

The rest of the encounter is zero to two rounds. You were saying?

Now, as for finding the real baselines.

Search character optimization boards for a thread called 'Optimization by the Numbers'.

It will show you the average stats of all MM1 enemies, divided by level. Now, this isn't entirely accurate, as it doesn't take into consideration buffs and items and other resources that the enemy clearly has, but that are not already factored in. It also doesn't factor in that not all stats have equal relevance, for example a caster enemy with Mirror Image is going to have much better defenses than something with a higher AC and no real defenses, but still drags down the AC average.

However, it is a good starting point.

For a melee character, you need to be able to take off a minimum of 80% of that HP in a SINGLE full attack. This is because round 1 will be spent moving and attacking once, then you'll get full attacked for most of your HP, so if your own auto attack doesn't kill the enemy it will easily kill you. That means you need to be doing 40 something damage a round at level FIVE. At level 15, 200. And this is the MINIMUM value. Level appropriateness is a bitch like that. At level 20, over 300.

You are not going to get an appropriate AC. Not at the higher levels at least. You might be able to manage 25-30 at level 5, but you're not getting 50-55 at level 15, and you certainly aren't managing 70-75 at level 20. Especially not given the other minimum criteria for relevance. Instead, you'd need real defenses. And that means miss chances, mirror image spells, and so forth. Get that and you might be able to deal with a third round... but probably not.

Saves wise... at level 15 you should have around... +25 Fort and Will. Ref can slack a bit, since most of its effects just mean you take slightly higher, but still trivial damage. You get hit by one such effect and it's game over. That should give you the minimum possible failure chance of 5% against them. Which is still unacceptably high since this is happening every round of every battle, and possibly more than once. But it's the best you can do, so supplement it with immunities, which are the forcefields against Rocket Tag.

And you should have something like that at all levels if possible. It isn't possible at the low levels, so you'll have to deal with randomly being removed from battles and hope no one scythes you before the color spray wears off.

I think I'm satisfied with the Crusader. It might look a bit better with tome feats but I don't really want to have to adopt another feat system (much less explain it to my players). Barring any final tweaks I think I'll accept it as is.

-Side Note the Spellscourge seems to be a more Tome ready version of this so I don't think this one needs to be Tome appropriate. So let me know any final thoughts anyone has on the Ishvalan Crusader.

Roy, what is with this requirement that a character must have only a 5% fail rate for saves against X, an AC in the range of 45% miss chance (you'll likely correct me to 15% or something) against X's best attack, while also being able to two-round said X (at minimum); where X is any possible monster of CR = level + 4? Doesn't that take the concept/purpose of the Same Game Test and shoots it between the eyes with a rocket-propelled grenade?

virgileso wrote:Roy, what is with this requirement that a character must have only a 5% fail rate for saves against X, an AC in the range of 45% miss chance (you'll likely correct me to 15% or something) against X's best attack, while also being able to two-round said X (at minimum); where X is any possible monster of CR = level + 4? Doesn't that take the concept/purpose of the Same Game Test and shoots it between the eyes with a rocket-propelled grenade?

That's called your straw man.

Passing saves 95% of the time is called attempting to survive 253.33 combats. Same for 1-2 rounding routine enemies at the minimum, and same for attacks actually missing you sometimes (those numbers give enemies about 50% accuracy instead of 95%).

Chances are, you won't be able to do all of those, just the damage and saves. Therefore you will 1-2 round all comers because your life depends on it.

How is it straw manning?

I'm inferring your prior statement on how you're expected to fight a boss monster with regularity. This is in the face of the idea of CR 15 monsters getting attack bonuses in the +40 to +45 range for your '50% accuracy' (the most I can find is about +30, assuming random buffs). If that AC is because your level 15 could potentially fight a CR 19 which will have those numbers, then by your admission of the +3/CR rate for attack bonuses, you're effectively off the RNG for normal fights.

Honestly, how do your properly competent characters fare in the list of challenges in the Same Game Test?

Roy doesn't your method seem to be a bit overkill? If there is only ever a 5% chance anyone fails a save against anything and any lone adventure doles out enough damage to not only absolutely destroy anything on his level but 4 levels above it in 1 or 2 may be 3 rounds isn't that a bit of overkill? It sounds more like your method lets you "win" those combats instead of survive them. 50 AC at level 15? I'm fairly sure that guarantees a miss for any enemy unless you're expecting every enemy to be maximized to their greatest effect ever. and 200 damage a turn for a 15th level character? A balor out of the book only has about 300 hp and its DR is not gonna cover it because the PC is probably using something to get past it. A team hurting for 200 a turn each would send me into well into epic level encounters for just a team of 15th level god killing PCs. I'd honestly rather hand wave a team of fighters to bare survival against a dragon than let my team go around with enough power to start smashing mountains with their dicks just because its Tuesday.

virgileso wrote:How is it straw manning?

I'm inferring your prior statement on how you're expected to fight a boss monster with regularity. This is in the face of the idea of CR 15 monsters getting attack bonuses in the +40 to +45 range for your '50% accuracy' (the most I can find is about +30, assuming random buffs). If that AC is because your level 15 could potentially fight a CR 19 which will have those numbers, then by your admission of the +3/CR rate for attack bonuses, you're effectively off the RNG for normal fights.

Honestly, how do your properly competent characters fare in the list of challenges in the Same Game Test?

Because it probably wouldn't have a success rate that high against stuff 4 levels higher. Not at the minimum acceptable values anyways.

Last I checked, the point of the same game test was to ensure you are playing the same game as everyone else. Since this is D&D we're talking about, that means you 1-2 round the enemy while not being 1-2 rounded in turn.

Having an attack bonus of 39 to 44 at level 15 is amusingly enough 75% of the numbers they get at 20. And since 15 is 75% of 20, this should not surprise anyone. Consequently, higher level stuff (aka, the stuff you actually care about) will be auto hitting you anyways, assuming you actually managed an AC of 50-55 while preserving relevance (which is possible with sufficient chain spell based buffing... but as this maxes out your stats, you aren't going to improve any further).

But ok, I'll bite.

My cohort was level 14. Now he's 16. Stats haven't really changed much. Taking the list posted earlier by Frank...

* A Marut.

Its HP are gone in 3 hits, it can't hit worth a shit, none of its special abilities do anything. What's it going to do? Good game.

* A Hullathoin (with its army of skeletons and bloodfiend locusts).
* A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze.
* A Windghost in the sky.
* A Yakfolk cleric with a party of Dao.

I have no idea what these are.

* A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls.

Trivial. Drow suck, and the ghouls just fill 5 foot squares.

* A warparty of Cloud Giants.

I'm guessing this means 6-9, and accompanying mooks. He kills one every 3-4 hits, which come 95% of the time. He dies in about 10 hits, which occur after 200 swings. He could probably do it, but it'd be close.

* A Mature Adult White Dragon.

Either it comes down and he kills it quickly, or it doesn't and they very slowly kill each other (but he probably wins anyways). If this were a dragon stronger in the air, he'd most likely lose because I forgot to give him flight. Fail, I know.

* A Death Slaad riding a Titanic Toad.

Don't have stat blocks for both of those.

* A Cornugon.

Certainly more durable than the others, but since the same game test seems to assume enemies don't use their resources it can't do much else. If they did actually use the resources they were entitled to it'd put up a lot more of a fight, but 5% success rate on almost everything means it loses.

* A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard.

Remember what I said about no flight? That's a bit of a problem here. Not too much of one since cone of cold does almost nothing, but it's mainly the ice walls that would pose a nuisance. The golem gets one rounded. He likely wins anyways, but only after a long and annoying fight between force javs for piddly shit damage and cones of cold for piddly shit damage 5% of the time and nothing the rest. Again, if it were stronger in the air he'd probably lose.

* A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact.

0.25% chance to die per trap. Depending on how many there are, he'll either walk away without really caring or... not.

* A harem of Succubi.
* A dozen Medusa mounted archers on Hellcats.

I think Iterative Probability with the win spells would get him, simply due to the number of 5% chances before he killed them all. Even though they'd all die in 1, MAYBE 2 hits.

* A pair of Glabrezus

Immune to grapple, they do nothing else important. Good game.

* Twenty Dire Bears.

Die in 2 hits each, and have about a 2 or 3% chance of starting a grapple with each claw attack. I think this one can be chalked up to Iterative Probability + furpiles. >.>

* A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.

Lol, what? See above about stupidly forgetting flight.

* A pair of Beholders.

This would go in the Iterative Probability pile, except there's only two of them, and they're very weaksauce and anti synergestic. Even so, 6 different 5% chances to lose per round means it could go either way.

So out of those 18...

7 get curb stomped.
2 are close but still likely is a win for him.
3 epic fails due to Iterative Probability.
1 epic fail due to not having enough resources to cover all basics.
5 I don't know what they are.

*shrugs*

MGuy wrote:Roy doesn't your method seem to be a bit overkill? If there is only ever a 5% chance anyone fails a save against anything and any lone adventure doles out enough damage to not only absolutely destroy anything on his level but 4 levels above it in 1 or 2 may be 3 rounds isn't that a bit of overkill? It sounds more like your method lets you "win" those combats instead of survive them. 50 AC at level 15? I'm fairly sure that guarantees a miss for any enemy unless you're expecting every enemy to be maximized to their greatest effect ever. and 200 damage a turn for a 15th level character? A balor out of the book only has about 300 hp and its DR is not gonna cover it because the PC is probably using something to get past it. A team hurting for 200 a turn each would send me into well into epic level encounters for just a team of 15th level god killing PCs. I'd honestly rather hand wave a team of fighters to bare survival against a dragon than let my team go around with enough power to start smashing mountains with their dicks just because its Tuesday.

First of all, was it me that broke the thread or you? I don't see any broken tags in mine, so...

Second, no it isn't. Iterative Probability. If you can barely survive one fight, you won't last through 13.33 to level, and you definitely won't live through the 253.33 of your career. And that means you never get anywhere, ever.

Remember, save or lose is coming every round, possibly more than once. So even then, that's only 14 rounds of combat before one likely sticks (> 50% chance to be annihilated) and by 21 rounds, you have a 2 in 3 chance of being taken out at least once. So even if you one rounded everything, you're still dying annoyingly often. Now imagine what it would be like if you didn't have a competent character. Exactly.

Ignoring goal post moving irrelevancies.

Roy, you broke the thread.

The cohort doesn't have the basic Protection from Evil effect to negate mind control for the succubi harem? Can he beat the medusae if he closes his eyes on his action, thus only dealing with Iterative Probability in the first round (54% success rate if they're lucky and all w/in 30' at the start)?

Does this cohort have the expected wealth (roughly) of a PC or an NPC at his level? Because if he's on the poorer end, he can easily turn two of those into wins by getting flight & protection from evil in the monetary catch-up.

But out of the ones you know, he's winning 9 out of 13 (69% success rate)? If he can't really lose against the medusa after closing eyes, then that's a 50/50 fight due to Iterative Probability.

Depending on how hard he curb-stomped those 7 fights, he might be able to lower some stats a point or two and take the money to equip himself enough to break the Same Game Test over his knee.